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Thread: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

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    Test Tickel ddoubleez's Avatar
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    The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasch
    Now you're just stretching...
    Whether by individual or by team, the models are still made by people who've already made their pre-supposed conclusions before ever developing the model, which is the basis of the scientific method. That makes the results biased and equivocal by their very nature, and you know it.
    Not nearly all scientists agree that the sun is the insignificant factor you claim. Let's not forget the ability of the sun to cause major swings in temperature alone despite being about 90 million miles away.
    And a computer model with or without man is still not evidence. Removing man from the Earth would count as evidence, but it isn't going to happen. Consider the idea that technology or not, that increases in CO2 emission might just be strongly related to the fact that there are 6+ BILLION people on the Earth now as opposed to say 500 years ago when the numbers were much smaller. What if it were just the population themselves primarily causing it and not cars, planes, and the like.
    Then what?
    As far as the population question goes, there are huge ramifications of having a population as high as ours.... And ACTUALLY, just about every cause I care about and bring up on this sight is a SYMPTOM of global warming..... So indirectly, population IS the problem..... And you do not have to go back 500 years, only 75.....

    Agriculture was invented or discovered about 12k years ago.... Before that the population was flat for THOUSANDS of years.... Our numbers were bound
    by hunting and gathering... We also did little as far as advancement went in any area, because all our time went into feeding ourselves....

    Agra-culture opened the possibility of leaving nomadic living behind us.... We were able to construct perminate shelters..... This induced the need for education and architecture to teach and understand the seasons and create an oral tradition.... This also led to the ability to rule our ecosystems for the first time ever..... Population then grew on a linear scale until the early 1800's..... Then behold, the discovery of coal.... Coal allowed us to clear forests, once needed for fuel... We then replaced the expendable forests with fields.... And the population EXPLOSION started....

    From 10000 BC to 1850ish ad we added one billion people to the planet..... Then coal allowed us to add another billion in 70 years.... Then kerosene was developed and with it the internal combustion engine was brought into the picture, allowing faster work and movement of food and materials over a longer distance, and we cleared more forests.... Then from 1930 to 1950 we added our third billion......

    1945 to 1950 enter the green revolution.......

    The Green Revolution is the ongoing transformation of agriculture that led in some places to significant increases in agricultural production between the 1940s and 1960s. The associated transformation has been occurring as the result of programs of agricultural research, extension, and infrastructural development, instigated and largely funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, along with the Ford Foundation and other major agencies.[1] [2] The consensus among some agronomists is that the Green Revolution allowed food production to keep pace with worldwide population growth. The Green Revolution has had major social and ecological impacts, and with multi-million dollar backing from organizations including the Gates Foundation, the deployment of Green Revolution policies will continue for some time.
    The term "Green Revolution" was first used in 1968 by former USAID director William Gaud, who noted the spread of the new technologies and said, "These and other developments in the field of agriculture contain the makings of a new revolution. It is not a violent Red Revolution like that of the Soviets, nor is it a White Revolution like that of the Shah of Iran. I call it the Green Revolution."[3]
    The effects of the Green Revolution on global food security are difficult to understand because of the complexities involved in food systems.
    The world population has grown by about four billion since the beginning of the Green Revolution and most believe that, without the Revolution, there would be greater famine and malnutrition. India saw annual wheat production rise from 10 million tonnes in the 1960s to 73 million in 2006.[16] The average person in the developing world consumes about 25% more calories per day now than before the Green Revolution.[12] Between 1950 and 1984, as the Green Revolution transformed agriculture around the globe, world grain production increased by 250%.
    The production increases fostered by the Green Revolution are widely credited with having helped to avoid widespread famine, and for feeding billions of people.[17]
    1950 to 1970 another billion.... 1970 to 1980 another billion.... 1980 to 1990 another billion..... And leaving us with a population of over 6 billion that are all dependent on ionized natural gas turned into food and crude oil based pesticides to keep crops intact..... Without natural gas the population we have is not possible........
    Very few people understand there are more people ALIVE NOW, than have died before us..... Clarification, there are more people walking the earth than buried in it......

    Ps I am going to copy this and make it a new thread, because you had a great question and I bet there are a few people that would like to add something, and this is offtopic.....

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    Original Hippie Killer zpr's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    I do agree with most of this. I think the advances in medicine are more to blame than fuel sources. We now live longer, and die from less illness and injury. These seem to be good things, but our population really needs somewhere else to live.

    I still don't buy epidemic global climate change as anything more than theory. I am more worried about where we are all going to live.

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    pimp shiiboi's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    zpr is correct-- advances in medicine (especially antibiotics) are the cause of the population explosion.

    Human birth rates are the same as half-a-million years ago. Humans are very prolific at reproducing-- and this has saved us from extinction countless times.

    The problem is that death rates have declined exponentially in the past few centuries. A hundred years ago, one in two babies died during birth. Half of the survivors died before age two, half of those survivors died before reaching puberty, and then half of the remaining were killed by work-related accidents or war before the age of 40. If you made it to 40 then you'd probably live into your late 60's early 70's. Today we consider it a tragedy when someone dies before their late 80's, and expect people who are 20 or younger today to live into their 90's.


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    Test Tickel ddoubleez's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Medicine does have an effect on population....

    However, if it were not for energy to 'work' a field and ferterlize the crops, we would not have the population....

    I will over simplify, but look at it this way.... If you have a batch of beer and you add yeast, the population will grow until there is no more sugar to feed on.... You can treat the illness that yeast may get, but without more sugar, you will have no more yeast......

    The very matter, or carbon, that become the plants, comes from natural gas.... Therefore, no natural gas no plants..... The carbon in your body came from a natural gas well....... Not from antibotics......

    You may find this to be an intresting read....

    http://www.dieoff.org/page115.htm

    Ps lifespans in the US are decreasing, not increasing........ and that is a BAD sign...

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    Original Hippie Killer zpr's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Supply and demand. As we need it, we make it. Just because its there doesn't mean it will be used. I can make a 55 gallon drum of chili for dinner tonight and most will go to waste, I'm not gonna have more kids just so it will all get used.

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    whore Krasch's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by ddoubleez
    Ps lifespans in the US are decreasing, not increasing........ and that is a BAD sign...
    And this matters how?

    In developing nations, they're breeding like a fricken virus which more than balances out the US and other developed nations.

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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by zpr
    Supply and demand. As we need it, we make it. Just because its there doesn't mean it will be used. I can make a 55 gallon drum of chili for dinner tonight and most will go to waste, I'm not gonna have more kids just so it will all get used.
    And what about when the supply runs out? Your example is why we are eating up all of our recourses. I can’t speak for the other nations in the world, but Americans are terrible at wasting. Hell, we were responsible for the Buffalo being wiped out, I dare someone to call that “natural extinction”. We over fish the oceans, clear-cut our forests.....ect; and for what? So Johnny politician can have a bigger house and better food than Dr. Analexaminer? Its not going to be much longer until we are going to start seeing the consequences of what we are doing.
    We are quickly depleting the aquifers that supply water for irrigation in the great planes. Source: http://www.meteor.iastate.edu/gccour.../ogallala.html
    I find it quite funny to that the government is trying so hard to get us off of dependence of foreign oil by increasing bio fuels, but what’s going to happen when we use up all of the fresh water irrigating these crops? We, Americans, already use 80% of the worlds fresh water to irrigate the crops we eat, where is the extra water going to come from? We have to drastically reduce our water usage. Source: http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/4420

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    Original Hippie Killer zpr's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatty JJ
    And what about when the supply runs out? Your example is why we are eating up all of our recourses. I can’t speak for the other nations in the world, but Americans are terrible at wasting. Hell, we were responsible for the Buffalo being wiped out, I dare someone to call that “natural extinction”. We over fish the oceans, clear-cut our forests.....ect; and for what? So Johnny politician can have a bigger house and better food than Dr. Analexaminer? Its not going to be much longer until we are going to start seeing the consequences of what we are doing.
    We are quickly depleting the aquifers that supply water for irrigation in the great planes. Source: http://www.meteor.iastate.edu/gccour.../ogallala.html
    I find it quite funny to that the government is trying so hard to get us off of dependence of foreign oil by increasing bio fuels, but what’s going to happen when we use up all of the fresh water irrigating these crops? We, Americans, already use 80% of the worlds fresh water to irrigate the crops we eat, where is the extra water going to come from? We have to drastically reduce our water usage. Source: http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/4420

    First off, I don't make more than my family will eat. I don't believe in waste, I worked to hard to get it in the first place.
    Second, My point with the comment was not to discount the diminished resources that result from over population. My point was simply that overusing resources is not the cause of over population.

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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by zpr
    First off, I don't make more than my family will eat. I don't believe in waste, I worked to hard to get it in the first place.
    Second, My point with the comment was not to discount the diminished resources that result from over population. My point was simply that overusing resources is not the cause of over population.
    The point of my reply wasn’t to attack you. I was using your example to bring about my point.

    So, how do you explain the successfulness of population growth without the overuse of resources? The more people you have the more you need to produce. It may not be the single cause of over population, but it goes hand in hand.

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    Original Hippie Killer zpr's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    I relate the overuse of resources with over population, meaning that a is A result of B. I don't see how the use of resources could have caused over population. I do without a doubt see the overuse of resources being caused by over population.

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    Test Tickel ddoubleez's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by zpr
    Supply and demand. As we need it, we make it. Just because its there doesn't mean it will be used. I can make a 55 gallon drum of chili for dinner tonight and most will go to waste, I'm not gonna have more kids just so it will all get used.

    No, but if you did not have a network of roads, that are only avalible because of gas, you could not make 55 gallons of chili....

    If you did not have enough food for 3 kids you would not have a fourth....


    If you did not have fossil fuels, you could not clear a forest and til it in a few days... You would also have to retain wood near your home for heat and cooking fuel...

    You would not have fertilizer with out natural gas, you would have to wait for manure to compost, which is a huge limiting factor.... We used to take sail-boats to islands and scrap bird manure off the islands and bring them back to the mainland.....

    It is understood that humans in developed countries, use 40 calories of fossil fuel for every calorie that we eat.....

    FYI, the UK almost died out, because they over harvested their island's forests so they could plant more crops and stay warm.....

    The situation was different in England and France. Much land had been cleared for agriculture in Roman and again in medieval times, and the population was much denser than in mountain Germany and Bohemia. Although metal mining was never on the enormous scale of the Central European strikes, many small mines exploited tin, lead, copper, and iron deposits. All these ores were smelted with charcoal, and with heavy demands on the forests for building timbers for castles, cathedrals, houses, and ships, for building mills and most machinery, for barrels for storing food and drink, and fuel for the lime-burning, glass and brewing industries and for domestic fires, the English and French found that they were approaching a major fuel crisis.

    A fuel “crisis” implies a lack of supply, and the other factors involved are supply and transport. Overland costs of transport were very high except for the highest-value goods, and it was simply not economic to carry bulky material like wood for very far on a cart. So thinly populated areas in forest land had no fuel crisis at all, whereas large cities soon felt a crisis as woodlands close by were cleared.



    Nations were therefore faced with only two alternative solutions: to import timber from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, and/or to substitute coal wherever possible. Transport costs imposed severe penalties on transporting timber long distances unless it was needed for special purposes such as building construction, pit props, or ship-building, and the coal-mining and coal-processing industries grew astonishingly, beginning in Elizabethan England and extending to European regions as the timber crisis overtook them.

    Every economic indicator suggests that the timber crisis was most acute in England from about 1570 to 1630. It is at this time that we see an unwilling but dramatic change to coal as the nation’s industrial fuel.
    And I will state again, the carbon in the food you eat has to come from somewhere..... Right now it is natural gas.... Without natural gas, no food..... No supply or demand law will produce more carbon, it will only dictate who will starve and who will not......

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    Test Tickel ddoubleez's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by zpr
    I relate the overuse of resources with over population, meaning that a is A result of B. I don't see how the use of resources could have caused over population. I do without a doubt see the overuse of resources being caused by over population.

    Overpopulation was not possible without a surplus food supply... Simple fact.....

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    Test Tickel ddoubleez's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Take a fish tank, put a male mouse and two female mice and give them 20 lbs of food and a pile of money..... In a month you will have a pile of money and a hundred dead mice.......

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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Quote Originally Posted by ddoubleez
    Take a fish tank, put a male mouse and two female mice and give them 20 lbs of food and a pile of money..... In a month you will have a pile of money and a hundred dead mice.......
    Reminds me of this:


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    Where am I? thecowboy's Avatar
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    Re: The population Bomb... The end of all 'successful' species

    Why do you guys continually post about how the world is ending? What are you going to do about it anyways? Don't you get sick of always complaining?

    Just curious.

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