mrsnifflez

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This debate has been going on forever, but recently has been brought back up and a flame lit underneath it. It has been a week since the new ban on the use of Native American references in NCAA championship events.

What are your thoughts on this ban?

I personally think it is total bullshit. I am a Florida State Seminole fan, and they are leading a fight against the NCAA for this bogus rule. In most publications the NCAA is gettin bashed for this decision (and rightfully so) and in most polls there is an overwhelming response that the general public doesn't agree with this decision. I just don't see how using the name of a particular tribe such as the Seminole or Ute tribes can be offensive. These 2 schools honor and have good relationships with those tribes to this day. Both the Ute and Seminole tribe have openly spoken out against the ban of their respective schools. Now this isn't just directed towards these 2 schools, it is also directed to schools with the nicknames : Braves, Indians, Savages, etc. (names such as redskins, savages, etc. are offensive and should be disallowed b/c of the negative impact those names have on Native Americans.) The NCAA got caught in a lie with its decision about FSU. They stated that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe disapproved the use of 'Seminoles', but the OK chief came out and said that they were in support for the school and of the Seminole tribe of Florida.

This whole ban is retarded, and needs some serious revision and research on behalf of the NCAA. And on a side note, this ban shouldn't have taken place to begin with, because the members of the NCAA (all 119 of them) didn't get a chance to vote on this...only members of the minority council or something to that extent. So I call bullshit on the NCAA.

joerockhead

This is a very complicated issue that has bias on both sides.

Take for example, the Washington Redskins. They will fight tooth and nail to keep the name, they will say it is there right. Yet it is a vulgar and racist remark towards a people, the Native American.
Indian is also a racist remark, that the White man made for the Native American.
Savage is also a racist and harsh name.
And the Thomahawk Chop the Atlanta Braves Fan's do is also disrespectful to the Native Americans.

Those names and issues should be seperated from the respectfull tema names. FSU has a good name, but having a white man dressed like a native American in war paint and riding the horse with the weapon, is disrespectful of the peaceful Seminoles.

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mrsnifflez

The issue of a white man dressing up as Chief Osceola has been brought up several times. However as many don't know, in recent history an actual member of the Seminole tribe of Florida was portraying him. The only thing that I have a problem with your post is that according the the president of Florida State University, everything done, such as logos, rituals (driving the flaming spear at midfield), etc. was developed along with the tribe, as to get everything as authentic as possible. FSU does not have a 'mascot' per say. The University does not consider Chief Osceola and Renegade as a mascot, but more of a symbol of the University and their relationship with the tribe. I don't see how it could be disrespectful to the tribe if everything was developed by university officals and the tribe. As I stated earlier in the post, FSU has the full support of the Seminole tribes in Fla and OK to continue the use of the name along with the rituals which are done in honor of the Seminole people. Also as a side note....FSU discourages and looks down upon those few fans that dress up as indians at FSU games, b/c they feel that is disrespectful...mainly because they don't do it correctly.

I don't know as much about the Ute tribe and their situation with Utah, but I did read that the Chief of the Ute tribe thought that the NCAA should reconsider Utah's use of the tribes name, but did agree with NCAA at banning those that are offensive.

I know my view is biased, b/c it is my team being banned along with 17 other schools, but I still don't see how it is disrespectful or offensive, especially when the tribe being represented is okay with it.

Wayne Brady

It's all about the money. They don't want to change the names because merchandising revenues will be harshly effect if they choose a lousy nickname. This debate has been going on for 25 years...it ain't going to go away until the names are changed.

Though I have mixed feelings about it, I've come to the conclusion it's a good idea. I can remember my middle school was the "indians", but never thought not once what Native Americans thought of these nickname. Would you be offended by "the darkies", " the white devils", "the ditchpigs", "the peckerwoods", "the saltines", "the eggplants", or "the ponchos"?

Seriously think about it.

g8r10r

I like what FSU President T K Wetherall said in his initial response to the NCAA....

After reiterating that the Seminole Tribe of Florida fully support the University's use of both the Seminole name and the image of Chief Osiola on horseback, he said, in essence:
For the NCAA to think that going into post-season play hiding any references to our Seminole name on our uniforms, as if we're ashamed, is the way to show our respect for native Americans, is nuts. (Ok, so I'm paraphrasing.)

And I agree.

As for names like 'Savages', and 'Redskins' and 'Indians', yes those may well be racist.
But I believe names like 'Illini', 'Seminoles', and 'Utes' may be very much honoring the history of those tribes. The Seminole Tribe of Florida, believes it does.

adrenaline

It should be up to the school and not the NCAA. I dont honetly see a good reason to change the names.

mrsnifflez

Yes names such as those would be offensive, as are names such as redskins, savages, and indians to name a few. However my point is mainly about the Florida State Seminoles and the Utah Utes. The NCAA is trying to force them to change their nicknames, even with their respective tribes gave their consent to use them and their rituals. That is what pisses me off so much, along with the fact that a school out of North Carolina gets to keep their nickname "Braves" because of their high enrollment of Native Americans...to me that is being hypocritical of their stance on this "offensive" nicknames. As for your statement on what the Native Americans thought about these nicknames, I will re-state that the Seminoles of Florida unanimously voted to let FSU keep the name...that tells me that they think FSU honors the name, or they would have voted a different way....Now (not to be rude) honestly tell me what is the problem with keeping the nickname if it is supported by those who it represents?

MrSpoon

What I don't understand, is do they just plan to not refer to FSU as the Seminoles during the postseason? Are they just going to call the "Those ones guys"? Can fans no longer wear FSU shirts with the word "Seminoles", or dress up in warpaint, or any other number of "offensive" things?

The NCAA already dropped the ball with the whole BCS mess, now they're making themselves look even more like hapless dumbasses with this shenanigan. Sheesh.

rexhamer

I agree they should not use offensive names such as "Savages", "Warriors", and "Indians".

They should use nicknames that more accurately portray Native Americans - how about the Atlanta "Blackjack Dealers" and Florida State "Pit Bosses"??

texasboy999

People are far to sensitive. It seems that there are people out there that have nothing better to do than jump on the PC bandwagon. I have not heard peep one from native americans (here in TX) complaining about mascot names. The names being used, and for that matter the context in which they're used, do not portray native americans in a negative light. Come on people, there are far more important issues to put our energy and time into.

mrsnifflez

Tuesday, the NCAA removed Florida State from the list of banned nicknames. I couldn't have been happier. Now I throw all my support to the Utah Utes. The NCAA realized that they made a mistake about the Seminoles, but retain that they have a strong stance on this new ban. I think when all is said and done, the Utah Utes will have their name lifted as well.

johnboy1844

At least FSU was able to beat this stupid rule, just someone with way too much time on their hands taking PC was too far

mrsnifflez

Utah was able to get their name taken off the list as well. North Dakota is still fighting, but the Sioux tribe in ND has taken their support away from the university, b/c apparently the university didn't hold up their end of the bargain with the tribe. I still think it was a dumb move by the NCAA, but in their eyes they are doing a good thing.

Wayne Brady

This is why I've taken the stance of "putting the shoe on the other foot". The so-called support for these Universities by Native American tribes are suspect at best.

1) The support isn't whole. If so, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

2) Tribal leaders see a bigger picture when giving their support without any democratic process. They fear alienating powerful people in the state governments which could impact their autonomy i.e., they're under the gun. Rock the boat and there goes the casinos, tax-exemptions, and reservations.

If UT changed their names to the "Rednecks" or "Inbreds" and Jeff Foxworthy supported it, would that make it OK?