thepipebomb

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You, my compadre, need to read the post I was quoting. I wasn't making the argument that we don't crash planes there for blah blah blah. I was refering to psychobilly's post stating that since Americans didn't fly planes into buildings there is no need to look in on what Americans are doing via the Patriot Act.

Jimi

How the fuck are they shakey at best?! I'm stating complete fact here. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me a drama queen. The fact that you claim such pretty much states that you are. This isn't about drama, this isn't about fiction. This is pure fact, plain and simple. The fact that my sister enlisted doesn't make you a dick. The fact that you are blindly supporting someone just because he's your president makes you a dick. Militaries DO conduct military operations. However, good militaries don't abuse their power. Our president is abusing his power right now. If my facts are so wrong, why don't you go ahead and point out exactly ho they're wrong, rather than just saying they're wrong.

thepipebomb

Perhaps the Kurds weren't Iraqi born nationals, it is irrelevant. The point I was trying to make is that HE USED WMDs. He also used them against Iran. I just can’t see how anyone can blame Bush when the director of the CIA came into his office and said it was a “slam dunk”, when Saddam wasn’t allowing inspectors into the country and when Saddam had a history of using WMDs. What I think you can blame Bush for, perhaps, is having George Tenant advising him when he obviously dropped the ball.

Bush made the right decision based on the information he had. We know now that the information was wrong. All we have here is a lot of Monday morning quarter backing. Remember hind-sight is always 20/20.

Jimi

Ahh, I misread that. Sorry.

WE GAVE HIM THOSE WMD FOR THAT PURPOSE. Should we attack ourselves, and throw sanctions up on ourselves? Bush did not make the right decision. Even they are flustering all over themselves, and people still support his decision. The Kurds not being Iraqi is NOT irrelevant. People keep saying that he used WMD on his own people.... knowing it would sound worse than saying he used them on his enemies. We used the two most massive WMD in the history of the world. Granted, that was decades ago, but we still did it. We are still allowed to keep these weapons.

I'm not just blaming Bush, I'm blaming a bunch of people in the Bush regime, yes, Bush being one of them.

thepipebomb

Jimi, you raise a really good point. We are constantly giving weapons, training, support or aid to leaders/countries who later turnon us and end up being enemies. We’ve done it in Afghanistan, Iraq, Cuba, the list goes on and on. We should have never given Saddam/Iraq any chemical/biological weapons. In fact we should not be giving these weapons and technology to anyone.

bleh123

Speaking of presidential abuse of power, here is an interesting fact I found out recently. I HATE comparing every war America enters into to Vietnam, but I must make an exception for this case. Everyone remember Vietnam? What got us into it? The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution gave the president (LB-fucking-J) the power and funds to do w/e he wanted to with military operations in South East Asia. So basically it let the prez fight a war w/o Congress having to oh so inconvienetly declare one. Sound familiar people? So anyways, the afore-mentioned resolution was passed as a result of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, where a US Destroyer, USS Maddox, was 'attacked,' 'unprovoked' by North Vietnamese torpedo boats. You wanna know something funny, no really, this makes me laugh (actually, it doesn't, just smile and nod) it never happened. The destroyer was not innocently patrolling in international waters, it was really in Vietnamese territorial waters doing electronic spying; figuring out the enemies Electronic Order of Battle (EOB) which has such useful info as what MHz their radios operate and shit like that. Also, there is no conclusive evidence the destroyer was attacked.... SO, a president (ThE HIGHEST ELECTED OFFICIAL TRUSTED BY THE PEOPLE) lied directly to the American public about something so that he can put American lives in danger and spend lotsa lotsa lotsa buckaroos in defense of 'freedom and liberty' but really in defense of coorperate interest. You all heard about the domino theory I assume, it was the fear that if one SouthEast Asian country fell to communism, the rest would follow like dominoes. Why would this be bad? Well, here is was Kennedy's Undersecretary of State (so he's second in command of writting foriegn policy), U. Alexis Johnson, said at a speech in 1963 ˝What is the attraction that Southeast Asia exerts? First, it provides a lush climate, fertile soil, rich natural resources, a relatively sparse population in most areas, and room to expand. The countries of Southeast Asia produce rich exportable surpluses such as rice, rubber, teak corn, tin, spices, OIL, and many others....˝ Also, as most of you probably dont know, Indonesia is the major natural rubber exporter of the world at the time; as far as I know.

So anyways, does any of this sound familiar about Vietnam? 1) Started based on a lie by the prez 2) in defense of cooperate interestes (natural resources...like OIL)

Jimi

I would appreciate that this last post be deleted.

:ban:

Juan.©amaney

You people are incredible. You bitch out Clinton for not stopping Bin Ladden before the 911 bullshit, and here Bush goes and tries to stop someone we were once at war with before, captures the motherfucker, brings his ass to justice for the unspeakable acts he has done to his own people and you still bitch. No weapons of md??? fuckit, he was still a dangerous man.

So our country was "wrong" mkay? What's your point?


it's not the greatest fuck up in history, we can rebuild.

At this point, I'm not saying Bush was right, but I still support his descisions. War is something we have to live with. We ARE the world police and if we weren't, we'd be like the french...I aint waving no fucking white flag and hope some super country comes to my rescue.


And this ofcourse helps all of America out, right?

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Jimi

You haven't answered my question. What is it that you expect me to do? Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden. I never bitched about the Clinton and Bin Laden thing, that's Republicans bitching because it's an anti-Democratic, and pro-Republican idea. Yes, our country WAS wrong, I'm glad to see you admit that. That was exactly my point.

Juan.©amaney

1. I expect you to show some respect for our president and leaders.
2. I expect you to be thankful for all the things this country DOES give you.
3. I expect you to NOT bitch about the mistakes the government has done every chance you get when you haven't done ANYTHING brave like your sister and everyone else in the military has.

When I drive around the base, for my daily duties, and I see a bunch of kids, still wet behind the ears, getting ready to defend our country whenever they are called, I respect them. When the president chooses to invade a country he suspects is plotting against us in an evil EVIL way, that tortures its own citizens, and has tried every other alternative to prevent us from war, yet their government has declined every peaceful solutions because they want to be hard asses, AND had the support of the majority of the people in the country, plus the support of his "regime" and on top of that, the leader of said country tried to kill his Daddy at one point, you better fucking believe I will respect him, wether or not he was right or wrong.

War is never good for anyone. People die, and battles won sometimes feel like defeat because of the losses we suffer. But I wont criticize a man until I am in his position and know what it feels like to carry the death of so many on my conscience. We impeached Clinton for getting head and lying about it. why not impeach Bush. If you are so bent on criticizing him, do something about getting him out of office.

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Jimi

1. I will show no respect for our president and leaders if I don't feel it's deserved, and I don't.
2. I am thankful for this country, and what it gives me.
3. Have you any clue what I've done for the military? When YOU join the military, you can use this example, until then, stick to something more valid.
4. I expect you not to set expectations on me.

If I thought the war was a valid war, I'd be on the front lines with everyone else. We're not defending our freedom, we are opressing the world.

Juan.©amaney

I stopped attentively reading after this...

I work for the Army, Jimi. :wiggle:

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Jimi

You're not in a position to be sent to war.

I joined the Navy, A-man. :wiggle:

schutzenkonig

If he's in the Army Corps of Engineers he won't be sent to fight, but he still can be sent to dangerous places Jimi.