Insaniteus

1: The subject was never about YOU, it was aout your people . You may not claim a specific denomination, but most of your people do. Belief is nothing, many people believe. They only stop being cultish once they take it upon themselves to question, to live, and be free, rather than blindly following what has been tought. If you follow no such denomination and worship what you've come to believe yourself, then YOU have ascended above te cultish nature of your peers.

2: Kool-aid sucks, it's just an easy-to-use metaphor for cultish devotion. Also, no idea why you're suddenly making lame shots at my relationships with women.... Hell, I only recently had to speerate with my ex over, guess what, her family being fanatical Christian and refusing to "allow" her to see someone who wasn't. Christian bigotted cultism killed my last relationship lol. Oh well, I've got another one now, no biggie.

3: A Christian is not someone who merely believes, and Christian is one who worships the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the men who speak of Their will. The belief is not what makes you a cultist, it's the blind following on faith. The Bible says that God ordered dude to prove his faith by sacrifising his own son, and the guy was rewarded for actually being willing to do so. THAT is the mentality that the rest of us fear.

-Insaniteus-

Jimi

No, denominations... and the religion as a whole are two seperate things. Christianity is the religion.... Baptist, Catholicism, Methodists.... these are all denoinations.

Nope. A Christian is someone who believe in Jesus and God. "...and the men who speak of Their will." THAT is a cult. This is where you're not seperating the two.

The Trinity.... The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, are God, Jesus, and "the spirit of the religion as it flows through your soul"... Many perceive this in different ways... laying hands, talking in tounges, fainting and violent conlvulsions (which weirds me the fuck out). You can get the same thing through meditation, or many other facets. I think you're trying to understand religion only as you see fit, and not how it is in actuality.

Insaniteus

Who wrote the Bible? Men. Who interprets the Bible in Church? Men. Who declares things unholy? Men. Hell, who is given the key to Heaven? A man (Pope).

All religions are written and run by men. Period, no exceptions. Islam is about the only one to claim otherwise as the Koran is supposed to have been put into Mohommad's head by God.

-Insaniteus-

Jimi

Oh my God! You're so clueless! The Bible, AND the Qu'ran BOTH were written by people who got a message from God, except in the New Testament where it basically just gives 5 perspectives of 5 men's accoutns with Jesus. The REST of the Bible, Old AND New testament were supposed to have been written by man from the word of God. Seriously... you really need to look into a religion before you talk shit about it. It REALLY helps if you atleast somewhat know what you're talking about.

Mohammad was, by historical accounts, born in 571. That's 571 years after Jesus. Now, if Christianity is just word-of-mouth based on decade old stories.... how is it that Mohammad is more right than the transcriptors of the Bible?

Christianity in and of itself is not a book religion. The New Testament is a result of Christianity, but Christianity is not a result of the New Testament. Again, Christianity is an ideology, not a cult. The cults come into play when particular sects try to manipulate the people through the religion... which is, consequently, a large factor in MANY religions. It happens, but don't mix up religion and cultism just because you don't believe in anything.

Now, again, as you point fingers at the fact that I'm being owned, ot that I'm not trying to prove anything.... the simple fact is... I'm not trying to prove my religion. This thread isn't about religion, as I've said a number of times. It's about the connection between cultism and religion. Therefore, keep on pointing at my lack of religious fact if you like, but it's not going to happen. I'm not going to get into a specific religious quarrel with you simply because you're trying to stir me up.

Insaniteus

*insert chicken analogy from before here*

The New Testiment were the words of MEN about Jesus, you just said it yourself. To add insult to injury, the New Testiment was put together over 100 years after the death of Christ, so by then it was hearsay. Nevermind the Seven Deadly Sins and the efforts of the Popes, Luthur, Henry VIII, and others to define the religion. The Old Testiment was a bunch of stolen fables from across the ancient world and the ancient laws of Israel, rewritten to be the actions and wills of their One God.



Ok then, big man. I want you to quote me where in the Bible or in the archives of the Vatican it claims that the Bible is the direct word of God. Sheesh, didn't Jesus himself say the Bible was flawed as he tried to revamp the Jewish religion?



Because his book was written all at once, during his lifetime, by HIM (In Islamic beliefs, the equal to Jesus), not scrapped together many decades later by a bunch of followers who never even met him.

Bear with me now, which is more appealing: Book written by God through his chosen prophet, or Book written about his chosen prophet/son written over 100 years after he died by people who already worshipped him and would eb sure to spin things favorably?



So...you're now saying that I'm right? Read that again, slowly, because it has been my thesis since this debate began. Let's rundown this for a second:
1: We both now agree that a religion becomes a cult when the leaders try to manipulate people through faith.
2: We both agree that Bush and many others manipulate Christians through faith. All agree Osama and many others manipulate Muslims through faith. *Insert examples across the board*.
3: Ergo.... This has been my entire thesis since we began. To be a religion usually requires unquestioning faith. This is VERY DANGEROUS as leaders easily can turn this unquestioned faith towards themselves, and lead their cultish followers. A religion and a cult are no different, one is just bigger than the other.




You know, I just quoted a source of CHRISTIANS agreeing with me. This is not a Athiest vs Christian Battle Royale, no matter how hard you keep trying to turn it that way....



No no no, you have it backwards. *I* keep saying this has nothing to do with religion, and YOU claim that it does. You keep saying that the reason you bring no facts into the arguement, and why you PMed to attack me maliciously, is because I'm challenging you to the aforementioned Athiest vs Christian Battle Royale. Ask around, see how many people think that I've once tried to challenge the "correctness" of religion. The only thing *I* have been doing, is saying that your religion is no more correct than the others you've deemed "cults" for being "sub-Christian".

-Insaniteus-

Jimi

Mark, Luke, Paul, and Acts were all written aroun 45AD. That's 12 years after the death of Jesus. John and Revelations was written in 95AD. That's 65 years after the death of Jesus, however, John was the transcriptionist of God. He was given a vision, and wrote the vision. John wrote Revelations. You have a way of mixing up who said what, and you're not good at it.

Now, the New Testament doesn't exactly say the Old Testament accounts are completely obsolete. It's a compilation that more or less adds onto the OT, while yes, saying that SOME of the OT has changed, due to the sacrifice of Christ. If you look, though, at the OT and NT.... they are completely different subjects, so there's really no room for contradiction. The OT is more a set of history and rules (see: Genesis, Exodus, etc.), while the New Testament is more accounts of Jesus, and the events surrounding Christ. There have probably been, obviously, some errors in translation, which is why people should read the Bible themselves, and put their own ideas together, rather than letting someone tell them what the Bible means.


No. You have said that Christianity is a cult. Stop changing your stories.

My stance: Christianity in and of itself is not a cult. That's all there is to what I'm saying. Bottom line. Fini!

OrdinaryGirl

I'm going to ignore the Jimi and Insani sideshow and remark that one of the things I think of when I think of cults is the fact that they isolate their members from the rest of society. And thus I will say from personal experience that indeed I'd consider JW's to be a cult. And Volfro, if you want to go head to head with me on that, I'll take you on. I'd prefer not to, though.

Jimi

NEVER IGNORE ME!!! !!!



And yes, I'd consider JW a cult as well.

volfro

Nah, I don't want to go head to head with anybody here. This thread has turned into quite the goofy argument.

I will, however, disagree on the point that, as was brought out earlier, by definition, most religions are, in fact, cults--barring the definition that a cult must have an individual charismatic leader, which JWs do not. Also, as a JW, I don't consider myself isolated from society. I have a job, I go to school, and I do keep in touch with friends outside my congregation. Every JW I've ever known has been an active, productive member of society, both inside and outside the religion.

Unless you mean something else by the isolation of members from the rest of society. If you did, correct me by all means; I'm sure that by some definitions, I am a cult member.

OrdinaryGirl

You really want to go there, Volfro?

Unless teachings have drastically changed in the last ten years, members were to stay as "separate from the world" as absolutely possible. I was not allowed to date people or have friends outside the religion, was denied any extracurricular activities such as sports or anything that would take up time that should be devoted to doing God's will. I was coerced to give up my scholarships because "the world would end before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passed away". That whole religion is an elaborate spy system based on the "if your brother goes astray, you ought to lead him back" teaching.

That religion binds people to it by not leaving any doors open for escape. There are no outside support systems allowed, thus in order to leave, you need to be willing to walk out on your own. And have everyone in your life treat you as though you were dead.

The day I left was the best day of my life.

End of rant. You and I have been down this road before, Volfro. If it makes you happy, I won't begrudge you that. But you won't convince me that it was something it's not.

michaeljohn

You know, I stay out of EOTH for the most part, and I have banned a few people for obvious flagrant attacks, or smart ass replies. What concerns me here is not the debate going on, but the fact that the issue of a private message has been made public. (post 41) This fact in itself is an attack on Jimi, and will not be tolerated. Period. I am going to recommend a 3 day ban for Insaniteus on this one. I will let the other supermods know, and one can make a decision. I was asked to check this thread and this is my interpretation. I am busy enough in the AL and the girl's pic section to have to worry what goes on in here.

___________________________________________

volfro

Eek. I didn't wanna get ya mad, OG.

Yeah, there've been some issues like that before. But, as I said, I am going to school and have the support of my congregation. And, I know families who let their kids play sports, who also are active in the congregation and such (one in particular is an elder, and three of his four children have voluntarily entered extracurricular activities).

However, some parents, families, and entire congregations often misinterperet the words--suggestions--of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society as the word of God, and take an extremist's view: no communication with people outside the congregation, no activities aside from door-to-door, no outside therapists, that sort of thing; and in that sense, with that mentality, the religion is very cultish. I know that view, am all too familiar with it, and I hate it; it's very hypocritical--particularly for a religion that preaches an all-loving, all-accepting Jehovah.

My experience, however, has been different.

But I don't want this to turn into a Watchtower-bashing thread, and I don't want it to be an argument between the two of us. You're right, we've been down this road, and I know it's a sensitive area for you. I'll drop it, and end by saying that I am terribly sorry you experienced the pain you experienced, as it wasn't deserved (it never is); and I'm happy to know you accept me regardless of my faith.

Justin

Lockdown

Juana!

re-opened by OG petition... to the kids... play cool