koЯnut

Very true...but there is a term "anal intercourse" that has its own definition.

Look, see it as you want. I'm being open minded. I see your points I just don't agree with them.

Like I said, times have changed therefor, meanings to certain things change. If you ask a gay male who has never had sex with a women but has had anal sex with another man if they are a virgin they will say no.

Car Enthusiast

we are all missing each others point

i am not saying that when you do whatever sexual that someplace somewhere someone thinks you have broken the virginity thing, i understand that when something sexual is done that you are no longer a virgin, as in that state of mind/morals

but people are trying to argue the DEFINITION of sexual intercourse, not today's contemporary view of sex, but the actual copulation of a man and a woman, the actual definition of it, definitions, "usually" cannot be argued, i am sure there is some exception to the rule, but the definition is just used to define something, i completely agree that if a girl says she is a virgin and i find out she has had oral sex i would still felt lied to but the definition is the definition

Jimi

Again:

Main Entry: 1vir·gin
Pronunciation: 'v&r-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French virgine, from Latin virgin-, virgo young woman, virgin
1 a : an unmarried woman devoted to religion b capitalized : VIRGO
2 a : an absolutely chaste young woman b : an unmarried girl or woman
3 capitalized : VIRGIN MARY
4 a : a person who has not had sexual intercourse b : a person who is inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity <a virgin in politics>
5 : a female animal that has never copulated

Jimi

Chaste, inexperience.....

People who have any course of sexual act are not chaste nor are they inexperienced.

Jimi

Also:

Main Entry: 2virgin
Function: adjective
1 : free of impurity or stain : UNSULLIED
2 : CHASTE
3 : characteristic of or befitting a virgin : MODEST
4 : FRESH, UNSPOILED; specifically : not altered by human activity <a virgin forest>
5 a (1) : being used or worked for the first time (2) of a metal : produced directly from ore by primary smelting b : INITIAL, FIRST
6 of a vegetable oil : obtained from the first light pressing and without heating

Jimi

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One is the noun, one is the adjective, but they both show that chaste, pure, unsullied, unspoiled, untouched un anything are part of the definition of virginity. Therefore, any form of sexual pleasure be it vaginal, anal, or oral is still taking purity and giving experience, and is therefore no longer virginal.

Car Enthusiast

just read definitions of chaste, celibate, and celibacy, must sleep now, will reply with findings tomorrow, short cut" celibacy does not mean what most of us think

Realtalguy

^^^^This was the first reply to kornuts question^^^^

This is the right answer IMHO to the question asked.


Mfinely has also repeated this about 20 times in his various replys. Heres the thing.

This isn't a question about fact anymore. Somehow it has become a gay straight soap box. Now if we are asking the exact meaning... Boom there it is. penis vaginal coitus.

Does this mean that any of us are against gay/bisexual sex? No. Does it mean we should bend the defention to fit todays standards of poltical correctness? I don't beileve so. Maybe this thread should have been titled "When two men have anal sex did they lose there virginity"

But as virginity is defined it seems very clear. coitus.

We can all talk ourselves in circles for the next 2 weeks and be at the same place we are right now.

michaeljohn

Well said. You can't redefine a word that is meant for a special class of person, one that has not experienced coitus. Arguments to redefine the word are without merit and a minority opinion. What';s wrong with just calling gay anal sex, just that?

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kulotsalot

i think the merriam-webster guys might change the definition in the future if there is enough demand for it. until then the coitus definition stands.

Jimi

How can we still be debating the definition? I've put the definition in noun and adjective form. Anyone who is having any kind of sexual contact is not chaste, or pure, or celibate. Some of you are ignoring the exact definition, and just using some random definition that you've pulled out your virgin asses!

koЯnut

I'm not going to start this again but Jimi's right. All of you have said "your" definition but havn't backed it with hard proof(coitus). I havn't seen one definition of the word virgin with that word in it.
Also RTG, I never was limiting it to gay males. Anal intercourse is "sexual intercourse. With man or woman.

michaeljohn

ok, the proof is here, along with other things.there are other people that want to redefine the word, but you nuts are a minority.

From:http://www.hyperdictionary.com/medical/coitus

Coitus: Definition: Sexual intercourse between a man and woman in which the man inserts his penis into the woman's vagina.

Also

http://www.wylde.com/virginity.html

Virginity is the state of never having had sexual intercourse. It is viewed positively or negatively depending on one's gender, one's age, one's culture and one's own personal beliefs and attitudes. In some cultures virginity has no special significance, and young people, of both sexes, engage in coitus very early and there is no special status associated with not doing so. In others, virginity is required of both sexes, and in many it is required of women only. Violation may result in severe punishment. For example, proving a bride's virginity became a public matter wherein the bed sheets used by the couple on their wedding night were hung out the window for the wedding guests to view. A bloodstained sheet was a sign that the groom penetrated the bride's intact hymen, causing it to bleed. Though not medically true, the theory was that the hymen would be unbroken if she were still a virgin.

From:
http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/sexuality/virginity.html

Other Sexualities?
The modern definition, applied to both men and women, goes something like this: If you have had sex (meaning penis-in-vagina, and sorry for sounding so clinical!), then you are not a virgin.
Supposing a penis isn't part of the mix, though? Would this mean that two lesbian women together for fifteen years or more are still . . . virgins? Even if they are incredibly worldly with tons of experience? It could, depending on your definition.

But in that case, there isn't a handy word for these women to describe the significance of their first time, since only the experience of P-in-V is considered to be "important" enough to talk about. The first time experience of these women could, and probably would be, one of the most emotionally significant things in their lives. It could be emotionally equal to what a straight woman feels when she first has sex with a man.

And how about anal sex, with gay men? Are two gay men still virgins even though they may have been together for years and years? If you count anal sex as "losing virginity" for them, then would it count for men and women as well? There are many cultures that consider anal sex to be a "safe" way for a man and woman to have sex and preserve the woman's virginity, so if anal sex doesn't count for men and women, does it count for two men?

The definition muddies seven further when you think of a bisexual person. Would this person be a virgin all over again if she had sex with men and then had sex for the first time with a woman or vice versa?

Again, there is no word for these emotional experiences, if virginity is determined as being the first time that a person experiences P-in-V sex. And while a person can certainly still think of something as significant, and describe it well, what a culture values is often reflected in the words it uses.


Survivors of Sexual Assault
The common concept of a virgin is someone who has no experience with P-in-V sex, but it doesn't stop there. Along for the ride is also the idea of someone who can be nervous, unsure, or inexperienced with what pleases them or how to please another person -- all of which can apply to the person who was sexually assaulted as their first experience with genital contact. And yet calling what they have survived "sexual experience" once again fails to take into account the emotional similarity between this person's feelings and that of someone who truly has no experience with P-in-V sex.
Experience is sometimes seen as that which one learns from. It is probable that a survivor of sexual assault has learned nothing about what pleases them, and is likely indeed frightened off of learning further. And again, to define virginity as first P-in-V experience is to leave this person's first happy, joyous sexual experience with no word for it.

Indeed, there are many people who are nervous, uncertain, or intimidated by sex who have had P-in-V sex! Similarly, there is no word to describe these people's first time enjoying sex.

Again, I'm not trying to say that that person is crippled by not having a word for something. I don't think that language creates thought in quite that strict a way. But it certainly does reveal what a culture considers worth talking about by what they have quick words for.



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The Firsts That Count
The whole thing hinges on the fact that for many people, the first time they have P-in-V sex is not one of their defining experiences regards sex, or not a positively defining experience. And yet it can hardly be coincidence that the only first experience that "counts" is the one involving a penis. :-)
A general list of firsts that can be important, in any order:

first kiss with a MOTOS (member of the other sex)
first pregnancy
first time kissing a MOTSS (member of the same sex) -- this can be a transforming experience since it can really hammer home just how possible an enjoyable session with a MOTSS can be to a person without experience
first orgasm
first orgasm during P-in-V sex -- "Look Ma, no hands!" :-)
first sex with a MOTSS
first orgasm from another person
first time in love
first sex with a MOTOS
first P-in-V sex
first time enjoyed sex
and nearly anything else
Plainly, there can easily be experiences other than P-in-V sex that can have far more significance to the person having them than simply that.
The problems with definition crop up because that is the only one that counts in our culture.

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Jimi

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictiona...onary&va=virgin

Can't argue with Webster.

A virgin is someone who is chaste, pure, without sexual experience. Someone who has had anal sex or oral sex is none of these things. This is the definition, I don't understand why this is still being argued.