drews

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The universe is a death trap around us, and we can't escape it or understand it.

Imagine a giant cage, then imagine some of the particles making up the cage morphed into mice, who then looked at the cage around us and said 'wow, a giant inscrutable death trap. This sucks.' The mice are us.

I feel like I should go into physics in order to try to unlock the universe's secrets, but why bother? I will never know the answers. Why set myself up for a dissapointment? why even bother?

The universe is our coffin, and we suffocate slowly.

ddoubleez

Welcome to Webrats and thanks for the thread....

Don't traps have boundries?

I can't think of a trap, that is not keeping you from something. What are we supposed to escape to?

And there are quite a few things we know and understand about the universe. Cultures thousands of years before us knew of black holes.... They knew of locations and occurances in the universe that they could not see....... We understand how the universe will 'end'. We understand matter and energy relationships. We can measure energy from events that have happened billions of years ago and create extremely complex models that coensied with current events...

ryster

Sort of an odd idea..never heard the universe looked at as a cage.

I have to say, I disagree. It is infinite (someone will have something to say to that) - if it has a boundary, than what lies outside it? It can't just be 'nothing', because that nothing still represents 'something'.

Trapped within the technology of our time, perhaps. But certainly not trapped anywhere specific. It is mind boggling, because the universe is the only tangible thing that is infinite, which makes it very difficult to relate to the principles (of math and science) of our time. I would just say don't worry about it. Just be happy that its here, and that you're around to think about it.

zand_stein

but me i dont hate the universe, because, its gods creations. and in relation of universe, i wanna be a grand winner of ms. universe. because im a simple girl with simple dream and that is to become a beauty queen.

ddoubleez

If god did create the universe he got the order wrong in Genesis...

You see he would have had to make light before anything else, then wait for a star (much larger than ours) to burn to a point that it has expended enough hydrogen to begin to condense... Then after about 1 million years, the star would condense enough to change hydrogen to helium, then helium to carbon, then be the prefect conditions to create carbon then explode spreading carbon through the area which later condenses to planets such as our own.... Then through the miracle of science and physics there is the carbon stock needed for life.........

clamsrus

here's another perspective...
the world as we know it is like being trapped in a bottle with the lid screwed tightly on...
all the stars that you see are in reality Prosac tablets ....and if you search deep within yourself and tinker with your own serotonin levels through meditation......you'll discover that it doesn't really matter if you can get the lid off anymore.

killerrobot

Killed by death? Could there be scientific theory that could agree with the spiritual assumption? Is this the discussion that we are having here?

I mean being "trapped in this physical universe? We live in a 3 dimensional universe. It's actually considered 11 by last count. Things such as time, gravity and some other BS that I don't really know, because I am not an Astrophysicist.

Ok, say this had only 2 dimensions. You could only move up, down, left or right. You couldn't move side ways. Life would be flat like a piece of paper. We know that Length and Height are not the only dimensions because we live in a 3d universe. If we lived in a 2d universe we would find it hard to believe that a Third Dimension existed! If another universe existed that had yet another plane I would have a hard time comprehending what it was because it is beyond the ability of my 3d mind to understand or cope with it! It would be a mindf**k!

Supposedly this is how it goes. Everything is made from energy. There are different levels or frequencies of energy. Like light, which is the highest frequency in this universe. Nothing is supposed to go faster than light. Some things do but they are even smaller than light (photons). Matter is actually energy that has slowed down! (I think that is just so whack!)

Anyway, the real universe is this huge infinite energy and within it are these pockets or bubbles of compressed(slowed down) energy that be come universes! Each one has its one unique properties and exists in is own dimensionality. The theory is that 2 of these universes bumped into one another and created our universe!

Now, finally back to the topic of the rationality of spirit. If there can be many universes how come there cant be a heaven? Maybe one of them is or better yet that is something even greater! Something some far beyond our comprehension that it could only be amazing! Maybe we are made from something beyond physical understanding.

Whatta yah's think? Am I way out there or what??
Peace,
The Old Fart

CWB

there is another theory that agrees nicely with the current sub-atomic and macro views of the universe ... it is called "holographic universe/mind" .
a small piece of a hologram can be used to reproduce the original 3d picture although the smaller the piece the lower the resolution .
in essence then , in some way , all that is in the universe , exists within ourselves as we are actually a holographic representation only . the "brain" is actually a device for decoding/encoding holograpic realities .
i don't know if i buy all of it ...


they now suspicion that what we know as "photons" do indeed have a very small mass , thanks to better instruments for measuring such things .
it stood to reason that something with any mass at all could never achieve the speed of light as it would take an infinite amount of energy to get it up to the speed of light . it might just be that there is some fine tuning needed on the old theory .

there are particles that wink out of existance and wink back in ... the trick here is that they show up before thay are supposed to . given the speed they were traveling at when they winked out and the distance covered during the wink out they actually arrived early of the calculated time .
are those particles actually exceeding the speed of light (superlumal velocity) or are they taking somekind of "shortcut" ?
and why do they pop back in "here" ? theory would dictate that they should go somewhere else with equal probability .

about "photons" ... the vibrational frequency of a photon has nothing to do with its speed (always 186KMPS) . the energy each photon or "quanta" contains determines its "color" in the case of what we call "visible light" .
the whole of the spectrum up thru cosmic rays is an increasing level of energy per quanta .
yes , matter (as we know it) is slowed down energy (read cooler) ... at least the "bigger chunks" are . on the quantum and sub-quantum level (quarks , gluons , mesons , bosons and a whole bunch of other such things) the energy requirements to keep these from condensing into protons , neutrons and electrons and then finally to what we call molecular matter staggers the imagination ... temperatures on the order of trillions of degrees !


dd ... god would have had to made sub-quantum "strings" or loops before there could be "light" and the ensuing cascade of atomic events leading to : hydrogen condensation , nuclear (fusion) stellar ignition , heavy element synthesis in the core of a dying star , the star going nova/super nova , then thusly "seeding" of heavier elements .
"normal" fusion reactions in a star will not create the heavier elements beyond #7 ... a star has to be in its death throws in order to create the temperatures and pressures needed for heavier nuclei synthesis .


maybe one day god will say "boys , yer pretty close but no cigar ... keep on tryin'" . see , he DOES have a sense of humor .

ddoubleez

subscribing and endorsing such therories means that time, as we understand it does not exist........... To me this is sci-fi, and maybe I need to be open minded... I have a better than above average understanding of physics and chemistry, but my mind clicks to thing like organic chemistry and I enjoyed studying and understanding hydrocarbons.........

With that said, the above is a huge leap for me to entertain..... You will have to help me understand what predated hydrogen and where photons come from without hydrogen......... I am not being a smart ass, I don't know!!!...

David Bohn was the father of quantum physics and shortly after making several breakthroughs, he turned his back on traditional science...... Many super-intellegent people have a disconnection from reality and live alternitive lifestyles, Bohn was one of them if I remember correctly.... He did have presumptions that two seperate events across a mind boggeling distance could simaltaniusly effect each other without anything 'connecting' them.... Many other people in physics (and myself) presume this is impossible and we have just 'missed something'. We are only 60 years or 2.5 generations into this....

I am out of my field and am no where near an expert on quantum-physics (but people that are supposed to don't have the answers either YET).... I have a couple of emails out to people in the field (I cut and pasted you post, I hope that is ok).... I will tell you that I am much more impressed with Einstine and polodosky's therory than Davids, however......

I also think that the above therory you mentioned was influenced by LSD and other drugs, but I may have that mixed up.... It does not make it less valid, but it makes for an intresting foot note............

Lastly, are you arguing that there is a god, because some people have therories that we may be the equavelant of a SIMS game with-in our own mind? I don't think you are, but that is what I am comprehending..........

Thanks for the effort and please be patient with me, again this is not my field....

PurpleButton

nothing to add, but you all gave me things to think about. Never really thought about the universe and our existence in such ways..

killerrobot

Cool Beans! It does seem way out there to think that there could be a scientific explanation that could come close to proving that God could exist! I mean forget Aliens, thats just old hat now! Forget looking for little green guys and keep an eye out for the "Supreme Being"! Like some Douglas Adams character!

The holograph theory sound like Hindu tale about the universe being a dream in the mind of a god and if he wakes its all over!!

CWB

i would have replied sooner but i have been a bit busy of late .

as for the bit about endorsing the existence of "god" . i neither endorse or negate the existence .
like the old saying : "three things that you never debate ..." . i will admit that sex is pretty much ok to debate these days but politics and religion (back-engineered to the existence of god in this case) still fall into the realm of a "pissing contest" ; nobody is going to win ... history proves this out . what a person believes is their reality .

i am no expert in the area of physics myself . i had the usual stuff back in highschool ... well , at least when 95% of a graduating class could actually read , write and comprehend at a 12th grade level .
most of what i have learned about quantum mechanics/physics , theory , etc has been on my own over the years .

i discovered many years ago that there aint nothing wrong with not knowing but there is something wrong with wanting to know and not seeking the answers . ignorance is the fuel that drives the machines of self-seeking and contemptuous individuals and groups .

learning about this stuff is like being a kid in a candyshop ... you can be overwhelmed by it all , try to ingest/digest a bunch of it and wind up puking your guts out .
there are several good books on the subject matters mentioned in yours and others posts ... i will get a list together of some of them i have and post it ... they should be obtainable from a library (one way or another) .
there are many good videos posted at youtube and the stage6 (divx) sites .

heh ... i gotta run ... i'm putting a new lawn sweeper together and modifying the lawn tractor/mower deck to work as a big "super sucker" .

--- "here , hold my soda and watch THIS ..." ---

:run:

ddoubleez

History will actually prove you wrong on this.... I have pointed out more than once on webrats that the strongest democracies in history were comprised of people that were rewarded for arguing and discussing politics. Every educated man attended weekly meetings in Rome to discuss law, until it's finally troughs and the removal of these is a bench mark for some historians for the beginning of the end.... Buddhism strongly encourages finding your own path and is the only religion that I know of that allows you to pursue other religions... This will earn you eternal damnation in other religions.....

In the US, we are a republic that calls itself a democracy, and we gas, shoot, arrest, water cannon and beat those that protest, then cheer the leaders that remove our liberties.... Our history of protests are changed in secondary level textbooks, Vietnam is a wonderful example. History books will tell you that we were awful to the returning GI's, newspapers reported on women spitting on returning GI's and that the GI's still in Vietnam were not supported back home, this simply is not true... History books also neglect to to teach that there were over 3 million GI's protesting the war and spend very little time featuring this, instead they demonize protesters. There was a saying among the GI's in Vietnam, Foxtrot, tango, alpha, which was an acronym for FUCK THE ARMY.... Officers were killed by their subordinates to keep from fighting and deploying.... And the peace sign was made popular by GI's before Woodstock...............

If you really think of your statement above and ask yourself why people don't want you to question or discuss some of the most important aspects of your life you may ask yourself what they are trying to hide..... People get offended when they have no argument, it is a defense mechanism........

Ps I contacted 7 people about your post four answered so far, all in quantum and none of them endorse it..... They say it is what 'intelligent design' people have taken hijacked from the scientific community... They are all professors and one is so religious she makes a big scene when praying at lunch and has asked me to her church in the past..............

CWB

whew ... done for the day .

i'm not certain about your level of understanding physics , but someone said that physics is at the root of all the sciences . you mentioned that you are not familiar with quantum physics ... some of it is pretty straight forward and easier to grasp than other bits .
having a background in organic chemistry is an asset to you . you are familiar with outer shell electron sharing , equilibrium and being happy at the lowest possible energy state .
a photon or quanta of energy is nothing more than what happens if you pump energy into an orbital electron .
take a bunch of average molecules of neon ... put them in a container at very low (sub atmospheric) pressure (say a piece of glass tubing 6 inches long with an electrode at each end) ... we don't want a lot of them in there .
apply an adjustable voltage to the electrodes ... nothing exciting happens untill the voltage reaches a certain point . when that point is reached an orangish glow is seen . but why ?

neon is one of the noble gasses . it's outer shell has a full compliment of electrons and balances the positive charge of the nucleus ... it is a very happy and inert molecule , it just don't want to mix with any of the other elements (chemically anti-social) ... this is all good and well .
when a neon molecule is subjected to an energy field (a lot of high potential electrons in the case above) the outer shell electrons get very excited (kind of like a teenage boy with his first issue of a girlie magazine) and start moving faster and faster . but remember that molecules/electrons don't like to run in a highly agitated state .

to relieve this pent up energy "absorbed" from the impressed voltage field the agitated electron that has been bumped up in energy level emits a "quanta" or packet of energy , these are commonly referred to as photons (there is an analogy to the young lad with the girlie magazine , but i shall digress) . in this case the vibrational frequency of energy contained (as it were) in this quanta or package we percieve as "orangish" .

of course , neon is not the only element to give off photons . maaannny of the other elements will do the same . if you get real fancy with some optics you can get a boatload of gasses , solids and liquids to "lase" ... but that is another story in physics


"quanta" basically means discrete steps , packages and states of being .
it is kind of like the difference between a big valve on a garden hose and a whole bunch of little snap valves (on/off only) hooked in paralell .
if you turn the analogue valve on just a little , you get a certain amount of flow ... turn it a little more and you get more flow ... if you measure this with a super precise pressure gauge you will find a continuously variable pressure with no gaps or jumps .
in the case of the snap valves , the more you turn on , the more flow you get and if you measure the pressure with the super accurate gauge you will detect small steps in the change of flow/pressure .


oh yeah , there is a good series on physics (conventional and quantum) ... it is called "the elegant universe" ... put out by PBS .
you can find the series at the divx site (pretty good quality compared to youtube) :

http://stage6.divx.com

if you don't have the divx player you can download it for free (no ^$%#$#$^& crapware in it) by clicking on the "download" button at the top center of the homepage .
just do a search and the vids will be displayed . there is a lot of cool stuff at this site , all with reasonable quality .